(no subject)
Nov. 8th, 2007 02:48 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
minxyI was going to do this meme:
Name any story I've written, and any character in it (canon or OC),and I'll tell you three things about that character which I didn't put in the story.
But then I realized that I did a similar one rather recently. So you are welcome to ask me about any character in any story and I'll natter on for a bit, but I have something else I'd like to talk about.
It started from tutoring over the weekend and through a wierd cycle of frustrating presentations from minions making the same mistakes over and over again, and got me thinking about presentations. Specifically, how you present yourself to a group or individual, and how it changes their reaction.
Exerpt from RL: I was tutoring in physics, and my tutoree was making things a lot harder than they needed to be in practice (though in theory he completely understood.) At one point, he realized it was the same explanation he'd just heard and said 'you've explained this twenty times, haven't you?'
To my mind, I could have responded in several ways, but I was hoping to not be intimidating and not add to his frustration, I said 'you understand the explanation ever time, I think you're throwing in unnecessary roadblocks when you try to crunch the numbers, though.' I was kind of pleased with myself because he didn't throw his hands up with exclamations of pain/anguish/hatred of physics problems and instead looked back at the page. I asked him if he could talk it through, and about mid-way through the attempt he sat up and said, 'wait, this is really simple, isn't it?'
I was pretty thrilled and took it mostly as the aha moment, but there was also this look on his face that suggested he was working on a theory that he was an idiot, so I broke out a particularly broad statement about physics and math and science in general all being based in very simple logic. It's not that any of it is magic, it's that it's a *series* of simple logical steps that additively take you way beyond the average person's daily thought processes, but there is nothing about it that can't be broken back down to simple, logical steps.
One of my underlings today tried to give a presentation. This is not a skill she naturally possesses and for the life of me I can't seem to get her to pull together a professional, clear way of presenting information. So her work is pulled apart because she can't express it well, and she is not respected because she can't finish a sentence or remember that now is not the time to giggle and use slang or answer the question she thinks she heard and not the question she was asked.
But see, it's all about how you present yourself as a teacher or a lecturer. Or a leader. Or a peaceful explorer. Or not the former right hand of an evil false God. Or not a threat.
Which, finally, brings me to the meta section of the thoughts.
I think Sam is supremely bad at changing the way she presents herself to a particular effect. She always stands like an athlete, she always looks directly at what she's interested in, you can always see the interest on her face. Fanon (and, to some degree, that S10 episode where they played cards in the cabin) has it that Sam could not play poker to save her soul; I suspect this is a related trait.
By extension, Vala is a brilliant feign. You almost never see what she's really thinking. Someone needs to write me a ficlet in which Vala goes undercover to win a space ship in a card game and absolutely, completely, totally forbids Sam from even being in the same village. Space pirates!
Right. So Daniel I think has a presentation as completely harmless (witness, if you will, his continuing woobie status in fandom despite biceps that would make a Jaffa drool), but I'm not sure it's a conscious decision on his part. His 'what? I won't hurt you,' is as innate (and not quite the same as 'I couldn't hurt you') as his 'what? Of course I'm right!' attitude. And connected: Daniel is right, and Daniel believes that he won't hurt you, therefore you shall believe it as well. The end, let's move on to letting him study some of your treasured archeological sites. (*eyebrow waggle*)
For the record, I think Sha're was pretty much, of necessity, also an unconscious manipulator with her body language and the way she presented herself. She though, is more of a 'what? I'm a woman, of course I'm harmless. Now you just look right through me and I'll be over here teaching myself and the visiting aliens to read, and then I'll incite a massive rebellion that will trigger the beginning of the end of your race, kaythanks.' She was pretty special, though.
Jack and Teal'c, I would like to conclude, are fucking *masters* at deliberately presenting the person they want you to see. Masters. Deliberately, at opposition to known facts about them, and completely effectively.
Teal'c was the right hand man of a false God and did great, great evil for a long, long time. Yet he can hold out his hand to children and they'll play games, take care of him, and trust him when everything else is exploding or dying or turning really funky colors. Even if he's turning really funky colors. Remember that time he got bit by a big blue mosquito and turned into a spiderweb? Little twelve year old red-head shared her candy bar with him, told stories, sat down and hung out for a while. Then risked his wrath (if he'd be up to it, which he wasn't) by choosing to go against his wishes. Now, that was a gutsy kid, Ally, but do you think the gutsiest kid in the world would have risked the anger of TEAL'C FIRST PRIME OF APOPHIS, LORD OF THE UNDERWORLD, KREE? I thought not.
I give you: Teal'c, former First Prime of an Evil Would-be God, recently voted most likely to be overlooked by fandom, the writers, and everyone.
Then, there is Jack. Sometimes accused of cosmic giddiness when he goes a bit far, but I think he must use that as a litmus test: do you believe that he's harmless? Then you are probably not a threat. Do you see right through it? Then you might be worth paying attention to. Can you read the situation fast enough to realize both that it's an act, and that it's funny? Then Jack might like you. Maybe. If you aren't a threat.
I think it's possible that I love nothing in canon so much as when Jack or Teal'c completely drop the facades and go all incredibly transparent. It's rare. Rare rare rare. I actually think Teal'c is generally pretty straight forward, actually, but so controlled, that for him the transparency is when he is both pretty well overcome with an emotion and also not at all inclined to school his features. I'm thinking particularly of the Talion type 'Jaffa Revenge OUTTA MY WAY' anger or his fury over the unnatural deaths of people he loves , but there are also tender moments like in Unending. Jack too, seems to be more likely to go scary black ops on you than to actually talk about admiring you... a little bit... maybe... where you going?... please come back...
Anyway, those are my thoughts on the matter.
Should you want to play the meme game:
My stories (including ficlets) are under the fanfic tag. My full length stories are also collected in this post and in the sidebar.
Ask me a character and story, I'll give you some quirks wot didn't make it to the page.
Name any story I've written, and any character in it (canon or OC),and I'll tell you three things about that character which I didn't put in the story.
But then I realized that I did a similar one rather recently. So you are welcome to ask me about any character in any story and I'll natter on for a bit, but I have something else I'd like to talk about.
It started from tutoring over the weekend and through a wierd cycle of frustrating presentations from minions making the same mistakes over and over again, and got me thinking about presentations. Specifically, how you present yourself to a group or individual, and how it changes their reaction.
Exerpt from RL: I was tutoring in physics, and my tutoree was making things a lot harder than they needed to be in practice (though in theory he completely understood.) At one point, he realized it was the same explanation he'd just heard and said 'you've explained this twenty times, haven't you?'
To my mind, I could have responded in several ways, but I was hoping to not be intimidating and not add to his frustration, I said 'you understand the explanation ever time, I think you're throwing in unnecessary roadblocks when you try to crunch the numbers, though.' I was kind of pleased with myself because he didn't throw his hands up with exclamations of pain/anguish/hatred of physics problems and instead looked back at the page. I asked him if he could talk it through, and about mid-way through the attempt he sat up and said, 'wait, this is really simple, isn't it?'
I was pretty thrilled and took it mostly as the aha moment, but there was also this look on his face that suggested he was working on a theory that he was an idiot, so I broke out a particularly broad statement about physics and math and science in general all being based in very simple logic. It's not that any of it is magic, it's that it's a *series* of simple logical steps that additively take you way beyond the average person's daily thought processes, but there is nothing about it that can't be broken back down to simple, logical steps.
One of my underlings today tried to give a presentation. This is not a skill she naturally possesses and for the life of me I can't seem to get her to pull together a professional, clear way of presenting information. So her work is pulled apart because she can't express it well, and she is not respected because she can't finish a sentence or remember that now is not the time to giggle and use slang or answer the question she thinks she heard and not the question she was asked.
But see, it's all about how you present yourself as a teacher or a lecturer. Or a leader. Or a peaceful explorer. Or not the former right hand of an evil false God. Or not a threat.
Which, finally, brings me to the meta section of the thoughts.
I think Sam is supremely bad at changing the way she presents herself to a particular effect. She always stands like an athlete, she always looks directly at what she's interested in, you can always see the interest on her face. Fanon (and, to some degree, that S10 episode where they played cards in the cabin) has it that Sam could not play poker to save her soul; I suspect this is a related trait.
By extension, Vala is a brilliant feign. You almost never see what she's really thinking. Someone needs to write me a ficlet in which Vala goes undercover to win a space ship in a card game and absolutely, completely, totally forbids Sam from even being in the same village. Space pirates!
Right. So Daniel I think has a presentation as completely harmless (witness, if you will, his continuing woobie status in fandom despite biceps that would make a Jaffa drool), but I'm not sure it's a conscious decision on his part. His 'what? I won't hurt you,' is as innate (and not quite the same as 'I couldn't hurt you') as his 'what? Of course I'm right!' attitude. And connected: Daniel is right, and Daniel believes that he won't hurt you, therefore you shall believe it as well. The end, let's move on to letting him study some of your treasured archeological sites. (*eyebrow waggle*)
For the record, I think Sha're was pretty much, of necessity, also an unconscious manipulator with her body language and the way she presented herself. She though, is more of a 'what? I'm a woman, of course I'm harmless. Now you just look right through me and I'll be over here teaching myself and the visiting aliens to read, and then I'll incite a massive rebellion that will trigger the beginning of the end of your race, kaythanks.' She was pretty special, though.
Jack and Teal'c, I would like to conclude, are fucking *masters* at deliberately presenting the person they want you to see. Masters. Deliberately, at opposition to known facts about them, and completely effectively.
Teal'c was the right hand man of a false God and did great, great evil for a long, long time. Yet he can hold out his hand to children and they'll play games, take care of him, and trust him when everything else is exploding or dying or turning really funky colors. Even if he's turning really funky colors. Remember that time he got bit by a big blue mosquito and turned into a spiderweb? Little twelve year old red-head shared her candy bar with him, told stories, sat down and hung out for a while. Then risked his wrath (if he'd be up to it, which he wasn't) by choosing to go against his wishes. Now, that was a gutsy kid, Ally, but do you think the gutsiest kid in the world would have risked the anger of TEAL'C FIRST PRIME OF APOPHIS, LORD OF THE UNDERWORLD, KREE? I thought not.
I give you: Teal'c, former First Prime of an Evil Would-be God, recently voted most likely to be overlooked by fandom, the writers, and everyone.
Then, there is Jack. Sometimes accused of cosmic giddiness when he goes a bit far, but I think he must use that as a litmus test: do you believe that he's harmless? Then you are probably not a threat. Do you see right through it? Then you might be worth paying attention to. Can you read the situation fast enough to realize both that it's an act, and that it's funny? Then Jack might like you. Maybe. If you aren't a threat.
I think it's possible that I love nothing in canon so much as when Jack or Teal'c completely drop the facades and go all incredibly transparent. It's rare. Rare rare rare. I actually think Teal'c is generally pretty straight forward, actually, but so controlled, that for him the transparency is when he is both pretty well overcome with an emotion and also not at all inclined to school his features. I'm thinking particularly of the Talion type 'Jaffa Revenge OUTTA MY WAY' anger or his fury over the unnatural deaths of people he loves , but there are also tender moments like in Unending. Jack too, seems to be more likely to go scary black ops on you than to actually talk about admiring you... a little bit... maybe... where you going?... please come back...
Anyway, those are my thoughts on the matter.
Should you want to play the meme game:
My stories (including ficlets) are under the fanfic tag. My full length stories are also collected in this post and in the sidebar.
Ask me a character and story, I'll give you some quirks wot didn't make it to the page.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2007-11-08 10:59 pm (UTC)Also, I have that photo all set for you but have gotten the emial bounce back again. Can you email me and I'll send it along to you? *hugs*
ps
Date: 2007-11-08 11:03 pm (UTC)Re: ps
Date: 2007-11-09 05:05 am (UTC)But, all my other minions are watching and noticing. And even if the girl struggling doesn't (knock wood) learn or adapt, the others are all watching and learning themselves.
I'm cheating on the random icon use for you because I always associate the Daniel with deep blacks icon with you. :)
(get the email?)
Re: ps
Date: 2007-11-09 11:21 am (UTC)Yup, got the email, am about to send you the photo. *hugs*
As for the minions, if she can't internalize it there's probably not a lot you can do. Perhaps it's got something to do with personality structure rather than just being new?
Re: ps
Date: 2007-11-09 05:25 pm (UTC)It absolutely is a personality thing, but I'm still trying to find different ways of communicating just in case this time it actually takes.
She can't process things she hears. It's wild. Has to be written down, I think. Or something. One wonders how she will ever adapt to wet lab work, because she doesn't seem particularly driven to read what we give her or find protocols on her own. Problem child.
Re: ps
Date: 2007-11-09 10:31 pm (UTC)The frustration of trying to find yet another way to communicate, ack. Perhaps it will take a series of different people over a long time span to get her to engage about these issues.
no subject
Date: 2007-11-08 11:19 pm (UTC)I'm with you on it being completely subconscious, and what fascinates me most is that it's a classic 'female' (American female) presentation -- the misdirection by sleight-of-hand assertation of -- hrm. not helplessness, but harmlessness. I have yet to decide where he picked it up ...
And it's really interesting when you contrast it with Sam, who has absolutely none of it whatsoever, despite being female. Of the two of them, Daniel's the 'girl', and Sam's the 'boy'. It's really quite fascinating.
no subject
Date: 2007-11-09 02:19 am (UTC)Plus, he truly does get distracted by his intellectual interests. When you have a watchful Bedouin poised to react to the slightest hint of an aggressive move, and Daniel goes off into "oh my god, this inscription can answer a 5,000 year old question!" land, he really is harmless.
no subject
Date: 2007-11-09 05:13 am (UTC)It's all down to whether I belong and know it, I think. It was a serious mental adjustment for me to deal with *not* having automatic respect on principle when I was abroad.
no subject
Date: 2007-11-09 05:52 am (UTC)Not every American, though, and Daniel would be one of the respectful travelers. In the US, though, in an academic environment or on a military base, he's not going to hold back because he understands those cultures to be competitive, and that he will have to give full rein to his pushiness to get his way.
no subject
Date: 2007-11-09 06:24 am (UTC)Soin Egypt, Daniel would probably more often have to deal with being an oddity and an other more than necessarily pegged as American. Where Sam, despite serving abroad and being the child of a military man, doesn't seem to have much experience being an other; except that she's learned to assert herself in a male-dominated field.
Probably both a product of environments, then.
(editing because I can and it's late and I wanted to reword something.)
no subject
Date: 2007-11-09 06:41 am (UTC)Still, I think Daniel would have some unconscious understanding that as a 6-foot male he could be perceived as a potential risk unless presenting himself as non-threatening. Whereas very few people will expect aggressive behavior from a woman, even if she is athletic, so Sam would be allowed a lot of leeway in her behavior. Plus, she has a naturally open and friendly demeanor, which people of most cultures respond positively to.
no subject
Date: 2007-11-09 05:18 pm (UTC)Which isn't to say I disagree, to be clear, I just think it's more complicated than male vs. female or encountering stereotypes abroad.
no subject
Date: 2007-11-09 05:35 pm (UTC)Daniel, for instance, is much more of a chameleon: he'll learn the language, eat the food, roll with the strange traditions, and be perfectly willing to look like a fool if it means learning something. Sam, on the other hand, would have benefited from standing her ground and looking strong, and learns most, or practices her science, mostly on her own, so she doesn't need to deal with locals or school her features.
Yes, yes! Absolutely!
no subject
Date: 2007-11-09 05:08 am (UTC)He does assert harmlessness in a different way than a (n American) woman would, though; no giggling, smiling, ducking head, tucking hair. He does slouch, adopt a very open expression and pay a lot of attention in a way that could be flirty, I suppose....
no subject
Date: 2007-11-08 11:23 pm (UTC)Interesting thoughts on the team. I totally agree with you, especially about Jack. I really love those moments when Jack goes hardcore because you know it's there, but he plays the part so well that it's always a little surprising to see it come out.
no subject
Date: 2007-11-09 05:16 am (UTC)(Meta occasionally just bursts into the update window. I don't do it all that often, but if you *want* to hear me expound upon Teal'c or Sam or the team in general or whatnot, you are welcome to hang out. I'm more likely to pimp you fic or even occasionally post some.)
no subject
Date: 2007-11-09 08:04 pm (UTC)Don't we all?
Although I have to admit, I have a slightly more visceral reaction to Daniel when he takes the brakes off. I think because, like you said, he presents as harmless so much of the time. And with Daniel it's a much less conscious act, if it could even be called an act. (Witness Bad Guys where Daniel is the worst hostage taker ever.)
So when Daniel slips into scary and intense territory (Absolute Power, Prototype, Reckoning) it has the potential to be even more gripping. IMHO, of course.
Meta occasionally just bursts into the update window. I don't do it all that often, but if you *want* to hear me expound upon Teal'c or Sam or the team in general or whatnot, you are welcome to hang out.
I have friended you because meta, fic recs, and fic are some of my favorite things. *g*
(Edited to fix a mistype. Love this new feature.)
no subject
Date: 2007-11-09 12:08 am (UTC).... pardon me, I'll be in my bunk.
no subject
Date: 2007-11-09 02:37 am (UTC)and you....
no subject
Date: 2007-11-09 05:17 am (UTC)And you are going to faint dead away when Rydra finishes her novella. Oh, Jack.
no subject
Date: 2007-11-09 12:13 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-11-09 05:21 am (UTC)Lack of sense of humor at all is a really bad sign. He swore off the Aschen right off due to lack of any sense of humor.
no subject
Date: 2007-11-09 02:10 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-11-09 02:36 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-11-09 05:22 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-11-09 05:42 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-11-09 02:36 am (UTC)you are so funny that way. i love it.
remember jack sizing up blonde!weir in lost city? so what you said just up there.
remember sam poking at teal'c in S6 Redemption until she got him to tear up and admit he missed daniel???? while jack cleaned his gun in the hold and refused to speak to them?
oh hell yes.
the characters; you know them. IMHO.
hi!
no subject
Date: 2007-11-09 05:26 am (UTC)That, and I outline the action of the last scene of the (RIDICULOUSLY LATE) reel_sg1 fic.
I actually loved how much Jack respected her when she handled Kinsey and him trying to push her around. I think she got a pass on the humor test due to extraordinary circumstances, but no wonder he still liked her later when she left for Atlantis.
I love how Sam can prompt Teal'c to drop the stoic act. I love that she can't with Jack, but Daniel can. One of the saddest things about season six was how Jack lost that outlet.
(thanks)
I have a twin icon to yours!
no subject
Date: 2007-11-09 07:32 am (UTC)One of my favorite Teal'c moments is in Singularity. So soon after that moment in First Commandment when Daniel urged him to smile and show that he's friendly and he only made himself ten times scarier... But with Cassie hiding in the bushes, he speaks ever so gently and holds out his hand. That instant when Cassie put her tiny hand in his huge one? I absolutely melted.
Love, love Teal'c. And I want that Teal'c and Daniel fic NOW NOW NOW. :)
no subject
Date: 2007-11-09 05:03 pm (UTC)Was totally thinking of that moment for Teal'c. I love that moment for Teal'c. And combine it with your 'smiling is scarier', moment too, it's very much a 'I don't need your gentleness, I have my own, thanks,' attitude. And I love that. Teal'c could have been a robot, you know? I 'teach this traumatized alien to feel again' stereotype, but he *isn't*; he is, however, alien, which is marvelous. And down to Chris Judge, whom I respect more and more as I realize how different he and Teal'c are.
Re: fic--well, I have a crappy draft. You'll probably appreciate it more if I actually go through it and edit once before I give it to you, but you have to be critical! YES, YES YOU DO. It's a rule for betas.
no subject
Date: 2007-11-09 01:03 pm (UTC)*nods* And I think that's the difference between him and Jack in this respect -- Teal'c is tremendously controlled in how he presents himself, and what he will allow to show through the mask, but he doesn't actively present as a type of person he's not (for example, in general, he projects "non-threatening" in terms of "will not harm you", not "isn't capable of harming you").
I think he gets on fantastically with children because he treats them with utter seriousness, as if they were merely very small adults; he doesn't put on a false persona as so many adults do when talking to kids. And when Teal'c does have to try to present as something he's not (e.g. an Earth human) -- he's not good at it.
I suspect that Teal'c is also generally very aware of his own emotions; he doesn't lie to himself.
Whereas Jack will outright fake, deflect, and throw up a smokescreen of nonsense, even to himself.
Not that he doesn't have a certain fairly sharp level of self-awareness, he just doesn't like having to think about it.
(There are times when Jack's responses remind me strongly of the Eddie Izzard all-purpose escape tactic: "LOOK! Over there! A badger with a gun!" *runs*).
no subject
Date: 2007-11-09 05:11 pm (UTC)To see his best friend pull of subterfuge of that level (fooling even Daniel) would have been quite a moment, though. Huh.
Not that he doesn't have a certain fairly sharp level of self-awareness...
Well, you can see where personality takes it to very different places, though. I mean, if you've done horrible things, you can either own it, really consider the implications, own those, accept responsibility, own that and deal with the consequences, accepting them as they appear as your due. Alternatively, you could accept more or less that you are or have done really evil things, and try not to do them again. Or think about them, like, ever. Because what good would that do, seriously?
Then again, Jack has a history of serious depression and suicidal tendencies. Teal'c can and does think about the darkest things and somehow turn it into a kind of potential energy.
I, um. I think I have a crappy first draft. Are you in the mood to beta? Please please please?
no subject
Date: 2007-11-09 05:14 pm (UTC)I have to hit my own word quota for the day before I can look at anything else, so can't promise an instant turnaround -- but if you can live with that, send it over!
no subject
Date: 2007-11-09 05:19 pm (UTC)(yay! Thank yooooou)
no subject
Date: 2007-11-09 08:54 pm (UTC)E-mail it, and I'll get on it a.s.a.p. tomorrow.
no subject
Date: 2007-11-09 02:40 pm (UTC)YES on Sam. She's just very...open and honest. She assumes people are telling the truth and takes things at somewhat-face value (until shown that she shouldn't) and she, in turn, displays that truth herself. She's honest and...it's almost like she values information and truth too much to bother with deception I'm not sure if I'm making sense.
Daniel, Daniel is a whole different story. I think you get it here: Daniel is right, and Daniel believes that he won't hurt you, therefore you shall believe it as well. because I really believe, at least pre-Ascension, possibly as late as going into S8, Daniel honestly believed that about himself. I think even if he knew how to handle a gun, even after everything he's survived, most of the time he does think of himself as harmless and not a threat (plus, compared to Teal'c and Jack and Sam he isn't).
One think that I find really interesting about Daniel is how bad he is at deception. Whenever he has situations where he needs to try to be covert or deceiving, he usually flubs (like when he, unconvincing, says he's the Great Lord of Oz or in the S10 episode when the Prometheus is stolen and he and Vala go undercover to talk to her connections and he completely blows the cover). He's very much a student of communication, but it seems like it's mostly the written form - like he hasn't really mastered the face-to-face kind, in some ways.
But, well, yes on Jack and Teal'c and being constantly completely aware of how they present themselves and what they want other people to see and believe. It really is...amazing to watch.
no subject
Date: 2007-11-09 05:22 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-11-09 05:26 pm (UTC)But I think in his head he's the harmless academic and he's not out to cause harm or do bad and doesn't want to cause harm and, thus, because he only does it when he sees no choice, he sees himself as harmless.
I do think that started changing mid-S8 ("Endgame") and lots in S9 and S10 - he started getting really tired of the universe kicking him and people he cared about and embracing the part of him that could be a threat.
no subject
Date: 2007-11-09 08:56 pm (UTC)I'd also say that it's not about thinking of himself as ineffectual, but more like: Daniel wants what is best for everyone in the universe, therefore (in his opinion) he can't be a danger to them. If only other people would see things his way, it could all be sorted out!
Whereas Jack and Teal'c have more of a military sense that in any war people get hurt, not always the right people, and that sometimes it's necessary to do "damn distasteful things" to achieve a given objective. Which, ironically, makes them much more conscious of their own potential to harm others.
no subject
Date: 2007-11-09 09:03 pm (UTC)I think intentions matter to him A LOT and he doesn't ever intend to cause harm, intend for the wrong people to be hurt (and once someone isn't the "right person" in his mind, well, I really don't envy them - and he has an easier time declaring non-humans to that category (specifically Goa'uld) which makes it surprising to me that he accepts the Tok'ra as easily as he does). And thus, he is not dangerous because he does not intend to be dangerous.
Where, as you've said, Jack and Teal'c have owned those parts of themselves.
I'm...unsure about late Daniel - especially after the second ascension. He came a back a bit...different. He might be willing to consider himself dangerous.
no subject
Date: 2007-11-09 10:16 pm (UTC)Except that what strikes me there is that it's limited to accepting that they're not Goa'uld, and being polite to individuals like Jacob and Martouf. He doesn't seem to form an especial emotional connection to any of them, and we don't see him react when they die. He certainly doesn't get enthusiastically interested in them in the way we see him do with other unusual alien species or cultures (like the Unas, for example).
I think it's notable that in "The Tok'ra", for example, he seems to be working on developing intellectual understanding of them (and to be somewhat embarrassed by Jack's reactions), but he's also keeping a quite wary distance, and seems genuinely repelled when they suggest that one of the team might become a host. All of which is entirely understandable, especially given his prior experience with the Goa'uld.
But interesting (and damn, I really want to discuss this with you once you've read a certain fic which is not out yet -- and I don't mean mine).
I don't think they're on his list of "non-people", but they're not really on his list of people to take care of, either.
no subject
Date: 2007-11-10 01:50 am (UTC)Um. Where was I? Yes, point, he doesn't connect with the Tok'ra as strongly as the other alien cultures - he just accepts them as being not Goa'uld (I would argue easier than Jack does). I also postulate with him that sharing a body wouldn't be TOO big a deal, but sharing a mind really, really would be (in terms of having a symbiote). And a lot of the repulsion is from there - the loss of identity and the forced openness and ...something.
But, yes, they aren't fully on his list of "people"
And when that fic exists make sure I see it and I would HAPPILY talk Tok'ra with you.
no subject
Date: 2007-11-10 06:56 am (UTC)And wow, your interpretations of the team are really, really good. Like, spot-on good. (And managed to help me figure out why I'm having problems with this one fic I'm writing that requires Sam to lie perfectly to people's faces.) Teal'c, though, man. For all that people seem to forget about him (why?!), that man is a freaking master of masks.
no subject
Date: 2007-11-10 06:48 pm (UTC)I think that might be one of the nicest compliments I've ever heard, that something I said helped sort out a problem with a story. Thank you!
no subject
Date: 2007-11-14 10:42 am (UTC)