gorgeous apropos icon by monanotlisa

[minxy]

It occurs to me, reading extraordinary Teal'c fic, and talking to the authors of said extraordinariness (paian, I'm looking at you, you marvelous thing, and still thinking about Speak the Living) who said there was more they were trying to do when they've already just blindsided me with story...

The Stargate PTB are not terribly skilled at world building, are they? Granted, they haven't got a lot of time to treat every world in every episode every week with Daniel level focus, but still, with their main cast characters they ought to do more and yet we continually get references to a society so cowed that everyone becomes faceless, personality-less, hunter-gatherers and sweet villagers who want nothing more than home and shelter.

tangent: Am I naming this incorrectly? Is it not, in fact, world building, as there have been instances where worlds and races and cultures are thoroughly and interestingly realized? Is it, rather, an insidious and unintentional lapse in interest or attention towards the worlds that have been enslaved? Overlooking characters of color for fear of saying the wrong thing? For whatever reason? I have to admit that I am rather fatalistic about the chances of influencing TPTB through any direct means, but consistently and frequently fan interests have noticed and acknowledged, from disapproval of the focus on Sam's love life to slashing to shipping to a wish for more team centered episodes. They, at least, know where to look, and I suggest that writing what we want to see, fixing episodes and filling in gaps in story are probably still the best way to be heard. It may not convince them that a show doesn't necessarily need a 34 year old white male hero in the lead, but it is something.

It is, granted, a heartbreaking notion that a complex and spirited people can be cowed into the most basic needs, dependency and concomitant loss of the ability to think for themselves, but the most amazing stories to me, are the ones that do not assume such complete absence of personality, of questioning, of conflict or of desire or ambition in their aliens, their main characters of color (Ford being an interesting outlier) or in the supporting characters who make the group a society. The stories where the adults may have been acting under orders, may have been motivated by basic needs, from shelter, to survival to leadership to freedom, but who are also complex individuals motivated by more than just noble duty and basic survival or a need to pass on the wisdom they have gained.

It occurs to me that I fell for the notion of the Alien being two-dimentional or inexplicable or boring (or I fell prey to the prevailing Earth-centric, America-centric, Caucasian-centric default) when I read fic that is so completely three-dimentional and even four if you count time and experience, and it makes me thinky. For example, had I been born on Chulak or Sadeta or Athos, no matter how able or not my family would have been to indulge me, I would still have been inquisitive, searching, needing to discover. I don't know if it would lead to recklessness (I doubt it. I enjoy adrenaline but I'm not a junky) but I am sure it would lead to investigation of the woods, of nature, of people, of history, of ruins, of recipes, of cooking styles, of the little lighter that Teyla had in the pilot episode, of how houses were made... you get the idea. I'd have been Mendel with pea plants, even if my primary job was just to plant them. (if you care for a greater explanation of my genetics metaphors, just ask.) Granted, if the world were not the gender egalitarian, color-blind society that bizarrely seems to pervade the universe post season 3, I might be broken spiritually, I might suffocate that instinct in the face of group survival, but then again, I felt that way growing up in the suburbs and I still couldn't manage to conform, so there you go.

Why do we assume that Ronon and Teyla and Teal'c only ever wanted to be warriors? What if Teyla had really wanted to learn to cook? Or be a mother or work with children or figure out the genetics of little pea plants? What if Ronon had wanted to be a bard or a scholar (like my icon), what about who he was as a boy led him to be selected as Runner, would he have so rejected that aspect of his personality to survive that he repressed it? Would he be tempted to indulge in being with people/investigating/walking off on his own/doing frivolous things now he's 'Lantian, or would he resist the temptation out of learned self-hatred?

Who would Teal'c have been had he been able to love where he wished, and choose an occupation of honor to direct his not inconsiderable focus and ambition? You can argue that he still would have been physical, been a warrior, but remember that the actor who plays the man, and looks just like him coincidently, chose to become an artist and actor and father and husband, for all he also played football as a younger man, so don't gauge by appearance alone; he may have been pressured, he may have had a natural physical advantage, but would he have CHOSEN to be military? If he had another choice? How I love the ficathon for asking these questions, and answering them with theories so deserving of the characters that they are themselves complex and fascinating and sometimes just the first step.

I'm so curious now about the moment where these characters as children realized they were pawns to the greater plan, even if ominous, even if the ones doing the planning were undeserving. There was a gorgeous fic from katie_m exploring the moment when Teyla accepted leadership of the Athosians (Wisdom), but it's more of a coming of age story than an exploration of who she might have been otherwise (because she was so young in that story) and thus addresses a different question. There is a moment in Shunda's ficathon piece where Teal'c sees a mark of the Ori on the ceiling of a room he's hiding in and recognizes a mark of oppression, because he is Jaffa. There is jssangel's extraordinary take on Ronon having more trouble adapting to Atlantian ways than just taking orders all of a sudden (The Third Vow is one of my favs.) I am tangenting off into another fandom to think of cofax7's The Naming of Names and pene's Beyond Speech for the challenge of invoking another planet in 250 words (cofax7's challenge, incidently, both gen Farscape). Fandom is grand.

I'm curious about whether Ford completely obliterates my little theory here or whether he will, disturbingly, fit the pattern too well now he's a junky and set apart, alien like.

Speak to me, yeah? Let's talk about the subtleties of backstory that the episodes have no time to explore properly. What did you think of the tealc_ficathon? What did you read? Rec me some other work? Take the floor! *surrenders the conch*

Comments

[katie-m.livejournal.com]

The Stargate PTB are not terribly skilled at world building, are they?

Dear God, no. There are any number of big problems with the Jaffa--where do they get their food, you know? Especially now? Shouldn't they all still be merrily oppressing planets full of human slaves (thank cofax7 for that one)? How are they producing tretonin, and aren't there going to be massive conflicts over that? Etc., etc.

In CotG, I think the Jaffa are actually a little more three-dimensional--the party on Chulak where SG-1 encounters Apophis and Amaunet doesn't have that whole "we are all warriors!" vibe, and some of the set design indicates "city," which would lead to the idea of civilian Jaffa. The show never showed us much of that after, though, in much the same way that communities we see are often way too small and weirdly frozen in time.

When it comes to Teal'c, I suspect his father's death had something to do with his choices as well. He managed to get into Apophis' service somehow and under Bra'tac's wing at a fairly early age (come to think of it, I wrote a story about that... Peacock). So I feel like he went basically where he wanted to go, unlike, say, Ronon, where despite his crazy-ass Marty Stu skills (look, I like Ronon, I do, but come on) I don't necessarily get that same warrior-born-and-bred kind of vibe.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_minxy_/]

Yes, to the tretonin thing. I've off and on had little moments where I thought, dear GOD they better train them up some synthetic chemists and right quick! And that Jaffa homeworld thing was always very confusing to me too, it seemed so inconsistant that they would all be from one place and yet have no depth of tradesmen, civilians or cities, that they would be dependent on human slave labor and other worlds but still be corralled? Even if it was just Apophis's Jaffa homeworld, that was an incompletely drafted idea. You're right about CotG, though, but they also gave the impression then that the Jaffa spoke Arabic to a degree, or a language somewhat based on it, but also English, and Goa'uld. Since then, we hear there are priests, priestesses, mothers and soldiers, and that's it, right? Although I always thought that the camps Rya'c and Drey'auc were living in for a while outside of town reminded me a bit of a caste society where they'd become outcasts or untouchables, and maybe were doing practical, unseen labor?

With Teal'c, though, there's still this shaping of everything he is in relation to the Goa'uld, every choice a reaction to something one of them did: kill his father, switch to new Goa'uld, work harder to gain respect, aim high so that loyalty isn't questioned, succeed to someday have a chance to avenge father... He is primarily and significantly influenced by the nearness of those who would oppress him. Really Bra'tak was the first influence on him that wasn't a reaction to the Goa'uld and was much more of a choice independent of survival or revenge.

Which is inherently different from Ronon and Teyla, I think, because the Wraith are apart, and they oppress by attrition in waves, then go away. The Goa'uld were a constant presence to Teal'c.

I like the idea that Teal'c is more of a warrior soul than Teyla or Ronon, though. Take how they practice fight: Teyla is very much the 'this is a useful skill and a grace and with efficiency I can kick your ass even though I'm smaller than you. Neener,' where Ronon takes a 'fight dirty/this practicing thing is stupid/take 'em down asap' approach and the Jaffa in general tend to be very 'fighting? whee! fun!' much like Klingons, I think. They do seem to place more inherent value in it, possibly because it can be an organized, full time job, where in Pegasus there's no predicting attack and everybody has a day job.

[paian]

How much do I love your question about what if Ronon or Teyla or Teal'c wanted to be something else when they grew up? A lot. I think what katie_m said about Teal'c's father is really important in his case; he probably felt a vocational destiny there even before his dad was killed, and afterwards he had the whole Jaffa revenge thing goin' on. But what if his heart lay in, I don't know, glassmaking? (Did we see him do anything analogous to Jack's pottery in WOO?) And what if Rya'c's heart lay elsewhere but he felt that pressure to be his father all over again? So interesting to ponder. I don't know about cooking for Teyla, though -- wasn't her soup supposed to be awful? *g*

The worldbuilding on the Stargate shows has been pretty sketchy, imo, but it was on Star Trek too. Trek was infamous for showing one tiny segment of a society and implying that it represented the whole planet. If extraterrestrials teleported into the Sudan today, what would they infer about Earth as a whole? Other planets should have the same variety of cultures and climates and geography as ours does, for the most part, Arrakis etc. notwithstanding. At least on the Stargate shows they have the built-in excuse of powerful/predatory/enslaving races deliberately retarding or suppressing cultural and technological development, but still, it is very sketchy.

The ptb don't have the time or resources to show certain kinds of diversity, but they don't give even a nod to it very often. It's wonderful that fanfic has the time and space to flesh out the details -- of planets and governments and people's backstory and anything else.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_minxy_/]

Vocational destiny is a great term, and now I'm wondering if that's something that the Jaffa have become in reaction to the Goa'uld as well, being as how the bad guys would value strength and various other genetic traits more than personality unique to the individual. Plus, it seems like the reputation of one's father is of key importance: Teal'c had to defend his father's choices, as did Rya'c. But really, what if Rya'c secretly dreamed of building houses? Or shoeing horses? Or making cabinets? Or designing complex irrigation systems? But he's never admitted it, even to himself, because it's always been about Teal'c and the Goa'uld and by the time anyone realizes that, they're caught?

I love the image of Teal'c with delicate glass. I did that once, you know, only made a paperweight, but saw a vase blown and a wine glass and I think a pitcher blown. *reminisces*

Variety of cultures. *sigh* Variety of climates sometimes--the implication that a whole planet could be tropical is bizarre. Although I once had this mary sue fic idea in which there was a gate on a moon made of naquadria which therefore spun faster, enough to near the speed of light and change how time passed. Sometimes I wonder if I couldn't drop the mary sue aspects and turn it into something really cool... except then I really don't know what to do with a time fic. *g* Specially if they're stuck on a rock.

[rydra_wong]

I'm not sure it's lack of skill so much as relying on particular scifi/action tropes.

And among those are the disposable Cannon Fodder bad guys who our heroes can shoot without compunction (the Jaffa, for most of the series), and the Noble Peasants/Savages who our heroes can rescue or to whom they can show the light (off-world humans, and now the Jaffa, who get shown to be wrong/wicked every time they decide that their interests might actually not be identical to Earths's).

Start paying too much attention to them, and the moral certainties of the show's world might get messy.

I mean, take Endgame - Jack either freezes or actually decides that rather than put Sam and Daniel at any risk, he'll let the Trust kill millions of Jaffa, and there are no repercussions ever? Even if it's meant to be ambiguous to some degree, there has to be a tacit assumption that the audience is not going to react the same way they would if Jack's actions lead to the deaths of millions of humans on Earth.

So, yeah - part of it is just genre storytelling conventions. You're not meant to think of the Stormtroopers as people (or, you know, the construction crews on the Death Star *g*).

But you add in a whole new layer of problematic when you tend to cast your aliens/peasants/"savages"/cannon fodder disproportionately with actors of color, with all your heroes white apart from Teal'c (who gets to be Token Alien and Token Character of Color at once).

[rydra_wong]

Since then, we hear there are priests, priestesses, mothers and soldiers, and that's it, right?

Yeah, the implications of a lot of canon seem to be that the Goa'uld have the Jaffa functioning almost entirely as a warrior caste, with human slaves filling the other roles in the economy as well as providing hosts.

In which case - not only do they need chemists a.s.a.p., the Jaffa are going to have to start learning to plow. Unless they're prepared to keep using the human populations on their worlds as slaves.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_minxy_/]

What's wierd to me is the tunnel vision that has occured now that the free Jaffa are good guys, because now it's just one or two planets, not umpteen million with humans and jaffa and goa'ulds all running about together. It's like only the free Jaffa matter and all the others are this amorphous pool of potential good guys, still very innocent, and still extremely expendable, depending on the story point that needs serving.

And yet, there is prosperity enough to allow a large council of the wisest among them, and in some cases strong warriors too, like Rac'nor and Teal'c, who could easily be in high demand elsewhere, particularly as the warriors keep getting killed off at such alarming rates, to take on the roles of full time politicians.

Come to think of it, the free Jaffa are pretty expendable too, as are the Tok'ra.

AND, with so many of the MEN dying, it makes one wonder if the gender ratio isn't getting all skewed. Genetically speaking, they might be at the point of accepting polyandry as a necessary survival step, from a diversity stand point (though the killing off of girl children in Ishta's world might offset that a bit).

[http://users.livejournal.com/_minxy_/]

Yup, Jaffa, cops, mobs, terrorists, evil masterminds, politicians... bad guys are always lousy shots.

But it was wierd because the movie set them (the Jaffa) up to be really impressive and formidable allies, but the show relied on that way too much as they showed them time and again to be incompetant, but expected us to remember that we'd been told that they were worthy enemies.

I would grumble that Stargate never has any reprocussions except that one time McKay took heat for being wrong, but that endangered Atlantis, and the science was wrong, not a case of putting the needs of we few against the lives of many others.

[paian]

Neat, about making the paperweight!

You've got a fic right there, about a Rya'c who wanted something else for himself but got pushed into following in his father's and grandfather's footsteps. Like you need more ideas. *g* Next tealcathon, maybe? The time-warping moon idea is also very cool.

[katie-m.livejournal.com]

And that Jaffa homeworld thing was always very confusing to me too, it seemed so inconsistant that they would all be from one place and yet have no depth of tradesmen, civilians or cities, that they would be dependent on human slave labor and other worlds but still be corralled?

Well, yes, and the idea of a "Jaffa culture" is overwhelmingly silly anyway. I mean, like they were all hanging out on their days off building common cultural references, right?

[http://users.livejournal.com/_minxy_/]

Probably as a distraction from plot holes. I really apologise for the Three Stooges references here:

Jaffa 1: Hey... didn't we used to be harder to kill? I'm sure I survived this in the first movie.
Jaffa 2: Shuddup, fool. Didn't you know there is a tradition of doing a back flip and playing dead when the second moon is full and in the seventh house?
Long haired Jaffa: This is the dawning of the AGE OF AQUARI--
All the others: Shut UP!
Jaffa 2: *pinches the bridge of his nose* Somebody make up a better tradition that doesn't involve singing, will you?
Jaffa 3: On it. Got nothing else to do since we're not slated to meet SG-1 again until next season.
Jaffa 1: No! I got it! *creepy voice* It was a dark and stormy night... *wavey hand movements*
Jaffa 2: *slaps 1 upside the head*
Jaffa 3: Who's taking notes so we can put this on the T.V. and make sure all Jaffa know the new lore?
Jaffa 1: *sigh* I did it last time.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_minxy_/]

Well... your powers of persuasion are formidable. I suspect that it is not at all the fic you thought it would be, but you gotta write that one yourself, I think; I'm not sure I have it in me to be terribly serious, atm, so this is lighthearted.

*head/desk* Fic is in beta. Plan to be laid back finishing and posting it, though.

[paian]

Hey, great! Lighthearted and laid-back are both good things, and I'm so glad you wrote the fic. Looking forward.

Also, your reply to Katie up above here a little bit, about 'Jaffa culture'? Has me chuckling. :-)

[psychofilly.livejournal.com]

God, you are going to make my head explode. (in a good way). I haven't seen any of the eps with an older Ry'ac yet but I guess subconsciously I've been asking myself some of the same questions. I wouldn't think it would be completely out of character for Teal'c to slowly switch from warrior to teacher and he's been among the Tau'ri long enough to realize that the Jaffa are going to need schools and scientists and infrastructure. Though surely other Jaffa have realized the same thing.

I'd like to see more of a split among the Jaffa and Earth because their interests aren't the same, and the Jaffa shouldn't be villified for it. Though at the same time, really delving into the kind of world building needed to fesh out Jaffa society could get boring fast.

I hadn't even thought of the issue of Jaffa farmers and Jaffa short order cooks. Will the Jaffa just sort of be ansorbed into the human populations of the worlds that they are on, or will they all seek to reclaim ancestral planets like Dakara and Chulak. How many Jaffa worlds are there anyway?

How are the women being integrated into the society. That's why I love your posts. They are either filled with lovely fic, or lots to ponder on.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_minxy_/]

Nyuk nyuk nyuk. That's nothing, after the Abbott and Costello routine, the Wraith come out and do their Can-Can number. The Replicators were scheduled for an acrobatics routine, but the prima donnas can't be coaxed out of their dressing rooms at the moment.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_minxy_/]

TPTB have implied that the Free Former Slave Humans are not relevant much, or at the very least, are of the level of Pegasus galaxy villages just happy not being culled for hosts, there are no ramifications for those slaves who believed or for those who aspired, no groups suddenly without mooring or the ability to make their own decisions.

It does bear asking, though, I mean, would the humans be all 'you are not coming near me with that there symbiote, pal,' or would they all just get along? No more caste issues?

It seems like the Jaffa have gone nomadic, to me. The women are along, but they still have distinct roles to play and there's been no discussion of whether they've come willingly or under protest.

*loves you back*

*puts your head back together with duct tape*

[katie-m.livejournal.com]

Didn't you know there is a tradition of doing a back flip and playing dead when the second moon is full and in the seventh house?

HA!

"There is a legend among the Jaffa..." Seriously, Teal'c used to say that a lot, didn't he?

[http://users.livejournal.com/_minxy_/]

Oh yes, and it's still said a lot, only now it's Bra'tac, with the caveats that it's an ancientlegend, rarely spoken of.

I'm convinced Bra'tak is really into stories. Probably wanted to be a bard when he was younger, dratted warrior caste.

[katie-m.livejournal.com]

Hee. "I just want to dance!"

Okay, no, that's a scary image, actually.